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Former Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells has twice broken down in tears as she apologised to subpostmasters during the first of three days of dramatic testimony at the Horizon IT scandal inquiry.
Ms Vennells insisted she was “too trusting” of the information she had been given while chief executive, and broke down in tears when challenged over her claims in 2012 that the courts had found in favour of the Post Office “in every instance” against subpostmasters – despite multiple acquittals having already taken place.
She also broke down in tears when asked about her response to the death of former subpostmaster Martin Griffiths, who died following an attempted suicide in 2013.
More than 700 subpostmasters were wrongly prosecuted and handed criminal convictions between 1999 and 2015 as a result of Fujitsu’s faulty Horizon IT system – which made it appear as though money was missing at their branches.
Speaking ahead of Ms Vennells’ appearance, Jo Hamilton, who was falsely accused of stealing £36,000 from the branch she ran in Hampshire, told The Independent: “I’m expecting nothing from her, to be honest. But I would love her to give the postmasters the truth they deserve.”
Paula Vennells pressed on vast team investigating subpostmasters
Paula Vennells has been pressed once again by lead counsel Richard Beer KC on how she had not realised the Post Office had a vast team prosecuting subpostmasters when speaking to former head of security John Scott after the Second Sight report.
Mr Beer said: “When you spoke to John Scott about this, did you not say: ‘I’ve been in the organisation five or six years now, I didn’t know you had a team of 100 people that were investigating up and down the country subpostmasters and sending them to prison’.”
He added: “Dozens of prosecutions occurred when you were network director, dozens of prosecutions occurred when you were managing director – collectively hundreds of prosecutions went on, conducted by the Post Office, having been investigated by the Post Office – and you didn’t know about it until 2012.
“So when you spoke to [former head of security] John Scott, did you not say: ‘how’s this all been going on? Who’s been managing you? Why doesn’t the board know about this?’”
Ms Vennells replied that at the time she spoke to Mr Scott “all that had changed” because “we had stopped prosecutions, his team had been substantially reduced in number and we were looking into the complaints made by the subpostmasters”.
Inquiry chair presses Vennells over claims not to realise Post Office prosecuted its own staff
The inquiry’s chair Sir Wyn Williams has stepped in to quiz Paula Vennells over her claims not to have realised the Post Office prosecuted its own staff until 2012 – despite joining the organisation in 2007.
Ms Vennells told the inquiry “it was an accepted reality, it was a status quo that I joined and accepted”, adding: “I shouldn’t have done.”
This prompted Sir Wyn to interject: “Isn’t an accepted reality an acknowledgement of an awareness of the reality? Mr Beer’s pressing you on how it could possibly be that you weren’t aware of the use of a function which was highly unusual for a private company.”
She replied: “I agree, Sir Wyn. The way that Mr Beer describes it is that it was a function that one didn’t hear about. We knew about cases being prosecuted, and I can’t remember – the Post Office board met infrequently – whether there were significant litigation reports that came to the Post Office board before I became chief executive.
“I can’t remember, but I think everybody’s understanding – mine included – was that where prosecutions were conducted, they were conducted by external authorities.”
But Sir Wyn noted: “There was at least one case two years before 2012 – Mrs Misra’s case – which attracted great deal of publicity. It does seem extremely surprising that it didn’t filter through at that point that it was actually the Post Office that was prosecuting, not the CPS.”
Ms Vennells said: “I agree. I haven’t seen anything in the documentation that points to the fact that one would have known that”, prompting Sir Wyn to interject: “I don’t think I need documentation to infer that this might be a point of discussion among senior people.”
Ms Vennells said: “I apologise. My point about documentation was whether there was anything that would have prompted my memory. I have no recollection of being involved in conversations about Mrs Misra’s case … there were not, as far as I know, discussions about the fact it was Post Office who had investigated and brought the prosecution.”
Paula Vennells says she was ‘surprised’ to learn Post Office prosecuted its own staff
Paula Vennells has insisted she did not know until 2012 that the Post Office conducted its own private criminal investigations.
Asked about notes from a meeting in 2008 which shows trainee investigators and the sums reclaimed from postmasters were discussed, Ms Vennells said it would be a reasonable inference to draw from the document that the Post Office was personally recouping money from its own staff – but insisted she had not taken that from the meeting herself.
She added: “I should have known and I should have asked more questions, and I and others who also didn’t know should have dug much more deeply into this.”
Ms Vennells said she was “surprised” to learn in 2012 that the Post Office prosecuted its own staff, and said she recalled no discussion of that in the years she had served on the Post Office’s risk and compliance committee.
Paula Vennells insists she did not put Post Office brand above suffering of subpostmasters
Asked whether she was preoccupied with the need to protect the Post Office’s reputation and brand, Ms Vennells said: “Yes but not to the extent over putting that over and above the suffering of subpostmasters.”
Pressed on whether she knew they were suffering, she said: “That’s a difficult question to answer because the answer is yes and no. I understood clearly if people were being prosecuted that was a very difficult thing and the reason we put in place the review with Second Sight and complaint and mediation scheme was to look into that.
“I wasn’t personally aware at the time because I wasn’t involved in the prosecutions. But I would like to say that whenever I spoke about the Post Office brand, it was a brand that was only ever built up through Post Offices, and it was a very strong belief of mine which I mentioned at conferences and meetings that Post Office Ltd as a corporate entity, there was no reason to build that as a brand.
“The reason customers came to Post Office and people chose to work for it was because of the wonderful work that was done in Post Offices across the country and still is every day. And that was the brand I was talking about.”
“So brand was absolutely important but in the sense of the local Post Offices.”
Paula Vennells was not responsible for signing off on Lee Castleton legal spending, inquiry hears
The inquiry has heard that Paula Vennells was not responsible for signing off on the Post Office spending £300,000 in costs pursuing £26,000 debt claimed to be owed by subpostmaster Lee Castleton.
The main hearing took place in 2006 an the main judgement was handed down in January 2007, the same month Ms Vennells joined the Post Office.
Paula Vennells denying trying to ‘get on the front foot’ after death of postmaster
Paula Vennells has denied “trying to get on the front foot” after asking in an email in 2013 about “what the process is” if someone “mentions the Post Office in a potential suicide case”.
Noting that she knew Martin Griffiths’ family believed he had taken his own life because it had been ruined by the Post Office, lead counsel Martin Beer KC said: “You had just been told about his death, and you were trying to get on the front foot here, weren’t you.”
Ms Vennells replied: “No. No, Mr Beer that was not the case.”
She added: “What I was trying to do quite simply was to get the wider picture and to understand particularly the very difficult challenges that Mr Bates had levelled at Post Office colleagues.”
Paula Vennells accused of ‘asking team to dig into’ dead man’s health records
Paula Vennells has been accused of asking her team to “dig into” the records of Martin Griffiths, a subpostmaster who attempted suicide on 23 September 2013 and died in hospital weeks later.
Post Office inquiry counsel Jason Beer KC presented Ms Vennells with an email in which she said she had “heard but have yet to see a formal report that there were previous mental health issues… and potentially family issues”.
He asked: “Were you asking your team here to dig into Mr Griffiths’ health records to look for information or evidence that he took his life because of mental issues or family issues?”
Ms Vennells said: “I simply should not have said it. I should not have used these words.”
Paula Vennells breaks down in tears again when asked about Martin Griffiths
Paula Vennells has broken down in tears again during a bid to apologise for her handling of the death of postmaster Martin Griffiths. The ex-Post Office boss was shown an email about Mr Griffiths’ attempted suicide in which she suggested there could have been “several contributory factors”
Asked why she had noted in her September 2013 email that there “are usualy several contributory factors involved”, Ms Vennels said: “One of the other things I had to do as chief executive was to understand if there were details to understand how this – I would have to communicate something so serious as this to the board, and I think I was trying to find out whether there was anything else behind it.”
Ms Vennells broke down in tears as she continued: “I had a personal experience of a previous Post Office colleague who had took their own lives and I phoned the family who explained to me that there were other issues involved.”
Advised to pause, Ms Vennells continued: “In this particular case I had spoken to the subpostmaster’s father, who had said to me that there were other contributory factors in his son’s death … In Mr Griffiths’ case, I also offered to do the same and I was told by the general managers of the crown offices that that wasn’t needed.”
She added: “Sorry is an inadequate word. I am just so sorry that Mr Griffiths isn’t here today.”
Paula Vennells asked about attempted suicide of subpostmaster
Paula Vennells has been asked about emails between herself and the Post Office’s then legal counsel Susan Crichton after Alan Bates informed them about the suicide attempt of former subpostmaster Martin Griffiths, who later died in hospital.
He had been accused of losing £61,000 pounds after the horizon system had shown a shortfall and separately was told he could be implicated in the theft of £50,000 from his Post Office in an armed robbery.
Ms Vennells told the inquiry: “I am very sorry about this – and that just sounds too shallow. Every email you will see from me about Mr Griffiths, I start with him and how he is or how his family are. The Post Office took far too long to deal with it.”
Former subpostmaster accuses Paula Vennels of ‘PR apology’
A former subpostmaster has accused Paula Vennells of making a “PR apology”.
Mark Kelly, 45, who was a subpostmaster in Swansea from 2003 to 2006, said: “The apology I think was quite well-rehearsed, the speech of the apology and also the response to the questions. The reason why I think the apology was more like a PR apology was because all these years she could have made an apology like that.
“Why did she have to wait until today to do that?”
Jess Kaur, 52, an ex-postmistress in Walsall who was wrongly accused in 2009 of stealing £11,000, said: “I was just thinking to myself when she started crying that we were crying like that at the time. It was nice to see her tears, but at the same time she’s got a lot to answer for. She just needs to tell the truth.”
Source: independent.co.uk
